hankfannin
Junior Member
Posts: 2
Registered: 24-6-06
Member Is Offline
|
![[*]](./images/corporate/default_icon.gif) posted on 6-3-09 at 10:17 PM |
|
|
OSHA Regs
Hey all,
Did you know that according to OSHA if you are diving in pools you must comply with OSHA CFR 29 1910 Subpart T Commercial Diving Regulations. That
means you'd have to be a certified commercial diver ( 625 hrs. of training) have a minimum crew size of 3, plus a long list of other regulations that
few, if any leak detection companies in the world could meet. No exceptions to this.
Anyone ever heard of this before? This comes straight from OSHA in DC.
Hank
|
|
|
trackerm
Member
Posts: 190
Registered: 21-5-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 10-3-09 at 07:43 PM |
|
|
just read the osha law. note how the law defines the type of work that being construction work, shipyard employment, longshoring or terminal work.
doesnt really say anything about the pool industry. i cant see sending a three man team one diver, one tender, one ready diver , mixed gas technology,
full face comm unit and surface supplying the diver with grade e filtered air. oh, dont forget a hot water suit for cold water dives LOL. even
though the divers are certified and we are commercial in a sense that a small part of what we do is in fact commercial in as far as diving is
concerned. . i dont think , and its certainly arguable, that this law would apply to leak detection. a full dive crew would cost a home owner thousand
of dollars a day to find a leak otherwise
|
|
|
1215
Junior Member
Posts: 57
Registered: 1-2-06
Location: murfreesboro,tn.
Member Is Offline
Mood: spring smellin''
|
 posted on 11-3-09 at 08:24 AM |
|
|
at last a voice of reason....
|
|
|
brrscuba
Member
Posts: 179
Registered: 10-4-06
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Underwater!
|
| posted on 16-3-09 at 04:58 PM |
|
|
Commercial OSHA rules do not apply to us, they also do not apply to scuba instructors, as a PADI Instructor I confirmed this many years ago.
Bruce
|
|
|
hankfannin
Junior Member
Posts: 2
Registered: 24-6-06
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 19-3-09 at 08:40 AM |
|
|
Bruce,
I to am a PADI, IANTD, Instructor and a certified commercial diver with 35 years in the business. www.commercaildivingsafety.com
I have owned and operated a SCUBA shop and my own commercial business for 10 years. I was the Diving Safety Officer for one of the largest commercial
diving companies in the world. All this to let you know that I know the business. There is nothing in the OSHA Regs that exclude leak detection. It's
commercial work. The only exceptions to the rules are Recreational and Scientific Diving. I have talked personally with the top OSHA guy in Washington
DC just a few weeks ago. His name is Steve Butler. You can look him up on the OSHA website or I'll be happy to give you his number.I was trying to
help get a large Pool supply company OSHA complient so they could install drain covers across the country without running afoul of the regulations.
Yes-SCUBA Instruction is exempt, but if you read carefully, not from all activities. According to OSHA - Commercial means just that - regardless of
the nature of the work.
|
|
|
1215
Junior Member
Posts: 57
Registered: 1-2-06
Location: murfreesboro,tn.
Member Is Offline
Mood: spring smellin''
|
| posted on 19-3-09 at 10:31 AM |
|
|
Chilly today.......
|
|
|
brrscuba
Member
Posts: 179
Registered: 10-4-06
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Underwater!
|
| posted on 21-3-09 at 08:17 PM |
|
|
Hank Fannin
Thank you for your insite, experience and opinions. I have a bit of experience too: 33 years /10400+ dives. If I understand you correctly, anyone
who gets paid to dive (other than scuba instruction & research diving) is to follow the OSHA Commercial Diving rules.
Alot of people I know get paid for diving such as:
My town's park & rec maintainance workers dive and install the moorings at the park each spring.
My police dept scuba team (that I trained) dive for weapons, crime items, and bodies.
The local marinas dive to replace zincs and clean hulls.
The lifeguards at the town park dive and clean the beach area of waste and debris before the spring opening yearly.
The local scuba store offers divers to pull weeds from the areas in front of lakefront homes.
The Country Club pro has his college son recover golf balls to be resold at the pro shop.
I often get hired to recover lost objects: wedding rings for example.
None of these activities appears to me to fall under the OSHA description of Commercial Diving" commercial diving is well described as U/W
construction, shipyard work, tunnel and bridge work, oil and gas platform and piping, harbor work, welding, cutting, cable laying, dredging mud.
So, are leak detection divers and all the examples above "Commercial Divers?"
I don't think so.
I suspect that I am not in agreement with you, but this is America and everyone is entitled to there opinion.
Bruce
|
|
|
trackerm
Member
Posts: 190
Registered: 21-5-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 23-3-09 at 06:56 AM |
|
|
I am with Bruce. The law is specific on the type of activity specified by law.
|
|
|
1215
Junior Member
Posts: 57
Registered: 1-2-06
Location: murfreesboro,tn.
Member Is Offline
Mood: spring smellin''
|
| posted on 23-3-09 at 09:51 AM |
|
|
same
once got paid to find a hairpiece in a pond...
|
|
|
trackerm
Member
Posts: 190
Registered: 21-5-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 25-3-09 at 05:16 PM |
|
|
just got a call from a guy who lost a fifty cent piece in a koy pond. Gee, Hummmmmmmmmmmm got to think about this one.
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 03:55 PM |
|
|
Hello, all! SeaJay Bayne here with Deep South Divers in Beaufort, SC. Like many people here (I suspect), my company is a small commercial diving
operation that does a variety of "diver for hire" small jobs. My "bread and butter" is cleaning boat hulls in our local area. I have around 350
local clients on my books, with maybe 40 of them regularly scheduled. My company grosses about $150k in sales annually. I have done a variety of
"big" jobs, too, as a diver for hire (contracted) for the SC Aquarium, the GA Aquarium (submerged epoxy repairs), all of the local utilities, and
several historical societies.
I joined this site specifically to tell y'all about this person who started this thread: Hank Fannin. This is stuff that the casual reader should
know, for fear of actually believing him.
Hank contacted me through my company website a couple of weeks ago, asking me what daily rate I would charge him if he hired my company to supply him
with two divers to go about 20 miles offshore the Myrtle Beach, SC area. In his initial inquiry (which was done by email - PM me if you'd like a
copy of the correspondence) Hank was purposely vague, telling me that the divers would be diving in approximately 60 fsw and may be out there for days
or even weeks.
Since a lot of factors go into an estimate for our clients, my reply said so... After all, we may charge one price to report a fish count, and
another for recovering bodies from a recent plane crash. Diving in warm, clear water over a famous shipwreck might be one price, while the recovery
of toxic waste may be another. Would we bring our own boats? Would we be diving with other divers? What equipment and gear would we need? I simply
said that we were interested, and to please call me as soon as possible.
...When I didn't hear from him immediately, I grew suspicious - emails requesting quotations are rarely vague, and almost always time-sensitive.
Often big dive projects run 24 hours a day, so when I got out of the water at 11pm one night, I called Hank.
We had a very enjoyable conversation, although I was surprised that he spent most of it qualifying himself... Telling me what a great diver he was
and how long he'd been doing it and even citing some of his certs and quals - most of which I'd never heard of. Now, I've been doing this
professionally for six years, worked on the Hunley, own and operate my own commercial dive ops, and have literally thousands of dives under my belt...
But I am no "dive god," so when someone cites certs and quals that I've never heard of, that doesn't mean that they don't exist... Maybe I am
just not familiar with them, that's all. :-) And maybe Hank Fannin, the commercial diver of 30+ years, doesn't want to do this diving himself...
Or at least have dive buddies he knows and trusts that would want to dive for him. Sure, that's possible. :-)
I was surprised to hear him have a generally negative attitude about dive training in general, but I was empathetic... We agreed to correspond by
email about a generalized fee of a few hundred dollars per day per diver - much less than I'd normally charge for a job that required a lot of
travel. I was fairly confident, however, that this job was bogus due to Hank's "over-the-top" concern about insurance and OSHA guidelines that
would clearly not apply in the international waters (outside US juristiction) that he was asking about. He also continued on and on about USCG
guidelines regarding diving, which I found very peculiar... Never once in all of the clients that I've had has a potential client expressed more
concern for the beaurocracy of the dive than accomplishing a goal. People don't call me because they want to find out if I'm compliant with OSHA -
they call me to get a job done.
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 04:05 PM |
|
|
As Hank and I corresponded, the conversation grew further and further into an argument about rules and regulations, which clearly didn't apply.
Nonetheless, I offered to dive "any way he wants" (meeting whatever criteria he was wiilling to pay for). After all, he was the client...
Since one of my divers is a full-time US Coast Guard officer, I asked him about USCG compliance regarding commercial divers. After some deliberation,
he informed me that while the USCG has it's rules and regulations about USCG divers, there are no laws regarding commercial diving, and it was not
the USCG's responsibility to police commercial divers or enforce commercial diving rules and regulations on civilian divers. Furthermore, he added,
in international waters (10 miles out), US Law would not apply, even if there WERE laws regarding commercial divers that the USCG was tasked with
enforcing.
He likened his answer to the fact that the US Air Force is also not tasked to enforce FAA-mandated airplane maintenance... That is, an F-16 will not
shoot you down if your airplane doesn't get it's oil changed on time.
"Refer to OSHA guidelines," he said.
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 04:14 PM |
|
|
...Which is exactly what I did.
Now, this whole time, I did a little exploration into who Hank Fannin was. He was refusing to tell me who the employer was, and every inquiry into
the job led to him citing more and more shortsighted opinion of regulation, which he insisted was law and would need to be followed to the letter. He
seemed to not hear that I would follow anything he asked me to (we know what we legally have to do - but will take additional measures if the client
requests it and is willing to pay for it), and continued to dodge my rational inquiries like, "What will we be doing down there," and, "Who is the
client," and, "Who will be signing the check" for irrational and argumentative debates about whether or not I, as the dive ops owner might sue
myself if I run out of air and die. Hunh??
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 04:23 PM |
|
|
At this point, the entire ordeal became nothing but a time-waster, and I sent him a final email telling him that I had real clients with real needs
who needed a real diver to do real work. I called him a fraud, laughed it off, and moved onto a paying job. At one point he hinted that the job he
was offering might entail sunken treasure... I assume to entice me... But my experience with treasure hunters is that they typically want to find
what they're looking for (rare that they do) themselves and aren't likely to hire someone to do it for them. His "enticement" only gave me
another reason to know he was full of it.
Exploration into who Hank Fannin is showed me that he owned (well, okay, his wife or gf or sister or mom owns it) a website in which he claims to be a
"dive safety consultant." It became apparent that his M.O. was to contact dive operators like me (and maybe you) and claim all sorts of OSHA
guidelines and USCG dive practices, convince you that you're in violation, and then offer you a solution... I suppose his consulting. Apparently
this was his sales technique.
It was interesting to note that on his website, his "current issues" are dated 2007.
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 05:16 PM |
|
|
I shared the entire ordeal not only with my USCG diver, but other dive buddies as well. We all got a pretty good laugh about it and I just stopped
talking to the guy. I went to work - diving - while he babbled and ranted about how the sky was going to fall on me, proverbially speaking.
Today I received a phone call from a gentleman named Lee who claimed to be an OSHA representative, who was informing me that a complaint had been
filed against my company, and that he was coming to inspect. I was shocked, and, based on the laughs that all of my dive buddies had enjoyed with me,
thought it a joke. However, as the conversation grew on and my smartass comments didn't have the desired effect, I realized that yes, I really was
talking to an OSHA rep, and he really was as confused as I was about who might file a complaint against my dive operations.
Lee had never dealt with a complaint against a dive ops before, and said so... Clearly, OSHA does not normally feel the need to inspect diving
operations. He mentioned that the complaint had been filed by a previous employee, which I found shocking because I have never had an employee...
Anyone that I've ever hired (and it's rare) has been a subcontractor, and thus would not be able to file an OSHA complaint, who exists to defend
employees from unsafe employers.
Lee got a good laugh out of what turned out to be a complaint filed by Hank Fannin. A little footwork by Lee showed that Hank also filed another
complaint against my company (which is me, since I'm a sole proprietorship) using his company... So that Hank could effectively file against me
twice.
The accusation was "Divers not trained sufficiently."
Since Hank and his company have never been on my payroll (and definitely won't EVER after these shenanigans), OSHA dropped the complaints
immediately. Lee told me that he would be asked for a pay stub, and in the absence of one, the complaint would be dismissed.
Lee then presented to me the entire book of OSHA guidelines, which are exactly that... Guidelines. They are not law. Someone not adhering to OSHA
guidelines is not breaking the law... But they are opening themmselves up to an employee being able to file a complaint. For example, if an employee
is forced to work in an area where acid could, at any time, splash onto said employee, the employee could go to the employer and ask for protective
gear. If the employer refuses and the employee goes and buys his own protective gear - but the employer won't let him use it - then the employee has
someone to call and file a complaint with... OSHA.
OSHA is used a lot in legal situations... For example, if an employee loses a hand while at work and sues the company he works for because he feels
that they are at fault, then the employer might say in a court of law that they were 100% OSHA compliant, indicating that they were what the
regulatory community considers "safe," and had done all the things necessary to create a safe workplace.
Today, OSHA has lots of standards, which most employers typically voluntarily comply with... In fact, OSHA has the ability to fine employers for
gross oversight after they've typically received many warnings, if the employer refuses to fix a clear safety hazard.
However, fines without warnings are not the norm, and while OSHA violatiions may be considered by a court of law in a negligence lawsuit, are not
illegal in and of themselves.
...Which brings this long diatribe to a close: Are we, as commercial diving operators, doing something illegal by accepting money for performing a
task while scuba diving? The answer is... No. We are legal to practice our trade as we always have, whether it fits OSHA guidelines or not. If an
employee or ex-employee files a complaint, however, we may be inspected, and we may be asked to change some things in the name of safety - at the
threat of a fine.
If you don't have employees, then the point is moot regarding OSHA guidelines. If you're not operating within the juristiction of the United
States, then the point is moot regarding OSHA. In fact, this OSHA representative claimed that OSHA guidelines didn't even apply on a vessel unless
said vessel was tied to a dock.
For what it's worth, Lee and I had a very good time discussing all of this, and I feel like I walked away with a new friend, frankly, in a regulatory
position which may help my company one day. He educated me regarding OSHA guidelines and how I could help create the safest environment for my
subcontractors. He then took several of my cards and proceeded to promote my company to several companies he knew needed a good, reliable diver. In
short, today's visit was profitable, enjoyable, and lucrative.
Hank Fannin? Well, Hank has continued to spout that he's someone important and that he's the dive ops personnel manager for a large company with a
long history of treasure recovery. He tells me that, "Awwww... I just got an approval to fly you in here (since I don't already live up the street
from his home in Port St. Lucie) and sign all of the paperwork. We were going to take your bid..." Yeah, Hank, woe is me for not getting that job
where I could get paid to hunt for big treasure... Did the job come with Jessica Alba, too? Man, I really missed out...
As far as I can tell, Hank's real job is as a pool cleaner... Which is a job I actually have a lot of respect for, given how hands-on it is. I know
what sort of work is involved! A "dive safety consultant?" C'mon, Hank... You at least have to know why OSHA exists before you can go advising
anyone on it... Or offering your services as a "consultant."
|
|
|
brehmcon
Junior Member
Posts: 20
Registered: 10-11-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 07:56 PM |
|
|
Thanks for the insight SeaJay, nice to have a conclusion to this discussion. Best of luck with your business.
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 21-6-11 at 08:19 PM |
|
|
Thanks! :-) Sorry so wordy... :-)
|
|
|
trackerm
Member
Posts: 190
Registered: 21-5-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 22-6-11 at 07:42 AM |
|
|
Being a coast guard officer myself, I can confidently say there is no coast guard jurisdiction or law enforcement ability the coast guard has on
divers (not to mention two coast guard divers died in a accident in which they were well overweighted) the coast guard is tasked with many facets of
aids to navigation, recreational boating safety, search and rescue, etc..... They dont police divers.... Certainly, if a boat was not in compliance
with federal or state regulations in which dive operations are taking place on they can board a board a boat and effectively, shut operations down due
to unsafe conditions on board a boat or ship
Despite nothing in the laws that excludes leak detection, nothing in the law specifically details any administrative or specifics regarding leak
detection. if its not written, its not being regulated. For all those who think commercial divers are needed to perform swimming pool leak detection,
jack your prices up to cover all the equipment necessary to perform "commercial" operations. You wont be in business very long..
Maybe we can all put this issue to bed, once and for all...........
|
|
|
Poolman
Member
Posts: 101
Registered: 13-4-06
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 24-6-11 at 12:06 PM |
|
|
In the uk a shop owner was told off by the council for sweeping the pavement outside the shop, as he hadn't had training to use a broom and didn't
understand the hazards there could be!
Too many interfering bodies the world over me thinks.
|
|
|
trackerm
Member
Posts: 190
Registered: 21-5-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 25-6-11 at 06:05 AM |
|
|
Good bye Hank Fannin. You dont have anyones attention captured here. You are crying wolf to a bunch of guys who know there is no wolf. The folks in
here are smarter than the average bear. We can spot a snake oil salesman a mile away, above and below the water.....
|
|
|
SeaJay
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Registered: 21-6-11
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 25-6-11 at 09:37 AM |
|
|
Glad you guys see the guy for what he really is. 
I can't believe that the guy called OSHA and filed a bogus complaint against me... Twice. Neither could OSHA.
To do so, he had to claim that he was my employee... So he lied about a claim, lied to OSHA that he was an employee, and lied to me about the
possibility of a job in order to get my attention in the first place. I suspect that he's also lying about his qualifications, many of which are
either nonexistent or totally irrelevant.
The odd thing is that, prior to his request for proposal, I had never heard of him before... So literally, the guy went hunting for someone to lie
to, give a hard time to, and "tattletale" on. It's not like he had some sort of vendetta against me or something. Oddly, it appears from this
thread that he attempted to do the same with this forum and the individuals in this forum.
...All to attempt to sell his "consulting?" I wouldn't buy a glass of water from the guy if I'd been a week in the desert.
This guy needs to be sued by OSHA for frivilous claims... What he did, lying to file a false claim, and causing them the time, effort, and expense to
drive here from five hours away... Just to see that it was all a bogus claim... Is just wrong.
It's hilarious that the liar and BS artist is the one in this thread trying to tell y'all what is right and what is wrong.
|
|
|
brehmcon
Junior Member
Posts: 20
Registered: 10-11-07
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 25-6-11 at 11:22 AM |
|
|
Hank should get into politics, he has all the skills.
|
|
|
Sdewolfe
Member
Posts: 114
Registered: 19-9-06
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 25-6-11 at 12:44 PM |
|
|
beat that horse...maybe he not quite dead yet
|
|
|
|
